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Post by echenry on Mar 7, 2010 13:13:37 GMT -5
Songwithoutwords/Andrew, Just wanted to give ya a quick shout-out of LA-OVE. SOLID, well thought-out critique. Impressed. Haven't read the submission you commented on, BUT I loved reading what you had to say about it. Solid. Love to you, sir. - E.C. Henry from Bonney Lake, WA
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 7, 2010 15:10:37 GMT -5
OOC... that was my plan from the beginning. Muahaha cough cough.
Andrew, dude, sprinkles aside- thank you. In fear of exposition I have a lot of things left unsaid- all piled in pages among pages all in different documents of story, character development, and direction. I have such a trepidation to answer all your questions, you don't even know! But being skeptical isn't something to admire and without seeming too pompous it's clear that I should have it clear on the script rather than here in explanation.
I have all your questions and misconstrues all in a word file - pointing to all the elements that have eluded me. And I shall find them.
To inquire upon contemplative persuasion to keep these characters: The Satellite - He just.. jumped into the story. He actually started in the beginning and I don't know he just followed me And if I could -- the lion king? Everything is about balance and who eats who and I think that's what influenced me- the use the story has for him- his character is mechanical. He processes things without a mind of his own. But through a sense of greed and growth he needs to consume- like technology often does, and throughout the script he kept changing - growing - from insect, to bird, to mythological creature. And I wanted him to add tension to Sonny's problem - like the scene where he's on Daphne's surface. Also this may be bland, but truthfully I didn't have a way for Daphne and Sonny to get out of Evitanretla. Sonny couldn't flare, and Daphne couldn't spin. I thought it was an interesting subplot so if it didn't get across that way or he wouldn't work I shall make him follow someone else.
Purgatory - this scene was merely just a flash, a funny bit that came about and I thought - why not develop it? I mean, it coincides with my the whole message, about dealing with death- about burning up, even the smallest of organisms go on throughout their day-- without even being noticed. They only exist when your there and anyways, I thought about the side story in ICE AGE - where the squirrel type character goes for the nut. I know I know, it's not as developed as his NEED being that nut and you're just waiting for him to lose it all over again. But the ISM is more of a minor, side step that was there for a few laughs along the theme.
Once again. Thank you for your knowledge and your time. It really helped. (and I don't really have anyone to bounce ideas off of, most of my friends are not into writing so there are some aspects that I made clear decisions on. Just for example: Had I made the comets, just comets-- floating rocks without personalities you wouldn't have questioned their motive, but because I gave them persona's - there has to be a reason for whatever they do, which is quite relative to a kid pushing another kid, why does he do it? You don't need a reason, you can just decide that he's a bully, he's mean and move on with the story.)
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Post by glengarry on Mar 8, 2010 20:33:41 GMT -5
Tous, tous, tous. Where to begin? You have an energetic style. That's where I'll start...
You have to find a structure for all that you have going on here. I think that is where you are struggling the most. I see no hook, no inciting incident no first act break no clear midpoint, no late act twists, no skeleton to hang this concept on. One major thing missing for me was an antagonist. None of these elements exist in so far as I can tell.
Because of that, the read is tough... There's nothing to grab onto. No reason to pull for your characters, no opposition, just random sequences of loosely connected events.
Think of all the animated films that are successful, they all have excellent antagonists. Often times people will write weak antagonists, characters that a hero should easily defeat or characters that have no realistic motivation of their own, but you may be suffering worse...
I wish I could give you more line notes but that isn't where this story is having troubles in my humble opinion.
Let me ask you a question before I go. What movie is this like and why?
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 8, 2010 23:14:27 GMT -5
Glen, this is rather a shock to me. Did you actually read it, or did you skim it? I can understand that possibly the hook that you've missed caused everything else to unfold and turn dull. But if you go looking for things, it only narrows your vision, and then nothing can find you. . Pg 20. Inciting incident - Sonny is cast out of the sun. Pg. 27 End of Act I (roughly) pg. 84 Son explodes/Everyone dies. If that isn't a twist, idk what is. -Daphne, finally able to harbor, and yet now it's too late. -Sonny overcomes his fear of flaring- but bad things still happen. -Reappearance of Spark/Luna.
Antagonist - if you've been readings GITS, an antagonist isn't necessarily needed(character wise). But Sonny and Daphne are their own antagonists. I show that in clear examples of their body language and relationships to themselves- so I'm not sure if you skimmed over them or possibly my writing hasn't translated well for you to create the image. --Also, the antagonist can also be the natural environment they find themselves in -- which is space and the inside of Daphne. So the Universe is the Antagonist.
NOTE: I've attempted in some loose version to have Loki as the antagonist, but it didn't work out. Not for me. It felt contrived.
A hook is a fresh idea for a story that instantly makes show business people interested in reading your script, and then makes the audience want to see your movie-- Maybe my log-line isn't that great- I didn't really think about it. But it's about a spec in the sun who struggles with death and purpose of the universe and why things are. He meets a planet who has just lost everything and has given up all her responsibilities in pure spite (she's a teenager, she doesn't listen to her father) -and with no clear goal as possibly the worst thing to happen to anybody, and I think every human being has gone through some state of this, that they just find themselves in emptiness with no clear direction (usually this happens in college and mid-life crisis's.. usually) and fear of where they will be in the future. (Which is why Daphne has a map) And in finding Sonny, she is terrified. She believes herself to be a dead planet; she can't take care of anyone. And now Sonny, always having to be safe, in his shell- no longer in his warm home (the sun) finds Daphne, who as cold as she is- is warmer than the cold emptiness of space. And in this act, they both help each other grow. Sonny with his need for dependence. And Daphne, with her struggle in being a 'parent'. They compliment each other, a unity of opposites. And --I don't know about you, but I'm constantly seeing this poster in my head. And instantly I see little lunchboxes and shoes that are only made for little kids with Sonny's picture on the side.
"...just random sequences of loosely connected events." -I don't believe these too be random events or 'circumstances'. You don't make a screenplay to make circumstances, you make a screenplay for story. My characters don't have to go through these events. I never planned on them- yet these are the things that have arisen during the process when I first started writing. They may be sequences, but each one of these happenings that they go through-- changes them. They have to. Everything has to be based on logic--for me. They're not just bumps that send them from one to the next, but rather a scab that is constantly being picked.
(I even have a version where Sonny goes to school in the Sun and the crisis is the Sun is getting bigger because Specs stop flaring- because when they do- the earth takes them and this brings up the issue with the green house gas effect. But because noone is flaring, the crisis are these appearing "strings" that suck them up. I even have an airport scene where Sonny's father, as a spec, not a hand, flares, because he's part of this group that believes flaring to be good- and dies. But this became too much to explain- and the beginning didn't make sense. Why would a spec have to go to school if their responsibility is to FLARE, burn up their fuel, and then die in order to keep the Sun stable. (because they learn that the Sun HAS to grow in order to be stable) So I cut that out. Also I watched "The Tale of Desperaux" which failed, because why would mice have to go to school? To learn to be afraid? They made them too human which became unrelatable. Not to mention the voice over work, dear god. That's why "Ratatouille" did a much better job. Rats eat. They get a dining table. Period.)
Anyways, I don't believe it's my responsibility as an artist to interpret what is and what is not. I believe my responsibility is to tell a good story. And I seem to have failed that with you so I am sincerely sorry I haven't touched anything in your heart. I appreciate you reading this Glen. I think what you have written is something very valuable for me to work on. It seems my skepticism has finally breached me but something in myself demands me to stick up for these things that have been crushing my mind and my nights staying in. And --actually-- I think I know how to structure this all together for you-- and give Daphne a clear goal. Because you are right. You're more right then me, but I guess I'm a little too perverse. It's a fault in me. But seeing as I cannot get away with it, I know I must set clear points. So thank you, and please, I encourage you to keep setting me straight.
(oh and yes you can still have your monkey) - (though, he may have eaten ze flowers)
And to answer your question... hmm I would have to agree with Andrew. This is mostly like Finding Nemo. Antagonism/roadbuddymovie/template form. And maybe even Wizard of Oz- Goal/ because Daphne's goal will make sense in this new draft to find the dark wizard and Sonny's desire to find his way home.
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Post by glengarry on Mar 9, 2010 2:59:33 GMT -5
I gladly accept the monkey. I'll get the flowers out of him, the hard way.
Tous-
I'm afraid my comments may have come off a tad stronger than i first realized. I certainly did not want to shock you. I do stand by the notion that a stronger plot with a formidable antagonist could do loads for what you have created here.
I applaud you for many of the themes you are exploring in your story and they could be even more effective given some sound structure. I am curious about the version with Loki as more of an antagonist. It sometimes feels contrived when your plotting but the audience does expect it and the job of the storyteller to provide it.
Something that could be a big help, you should sit down and watch Finding Nemo with your screenplay in hand (or better yet, find a copy of Finding Nemo in screenplay form) and do a page by page breakdown of what happens in Nemo on page 5 and what happens in Sonny on page 5, then Nemo page 10 and Sonny page 10, the first act break, the midpoint, twist, climax etc.
Now I'm not suggesting that you lift the sequences from Nemo whole sale but that movie did get made so there is something there for you to learn from. Perhaps figure out how Sonny can be more like that structure in terms of when certain plot points and thematic revelations play.
I appreciate you having such a spiritual sense to what you are writing but remember that there is a scientific side to this craft as well. If you look for it, study it and apply to your work it will make it stronger. You will be able to say all of the things you want and the audience will have no choice but to listen because they can't wait to see what happens next.
i did a quick search online for a Nemo pdf but it looks like mostly transcripts which are really no help. Definitely watch the movie with script in hand and see what beats you may be missing and who knows what ideas may pop up...
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 9, 2010 11:40:05 GMT -5
"do a page by page breakdown of what happens in Nemo" --Very funny- I actually did that. I had this idea in my head for about two weeks and I was thinking and thinking and then one night it just hit me and I stayed up from 6pm till 6a.m. just writing and getting this down. And then it went from there. But when I read it later, I realized they had met the DARK CREATURES in a similar fashion that Dori and Marlin meet Bruce and the sharks.
Finding Nemo (this is what I wrote down in my sketchbook, granted I'm going to go do it again and focus on the themeline/plot points/act breaks)- 5 min - Danger place, things he can't do. 15 min - Nemo taken 18 min - Marlin and Dori meet Bruce 20 min - Back to Nemo, learn lesson 30 min - Fish light. Marlin needs Dori. 40 min - Nemo - initiation sharkbate, acceptance. Plan to escape. 45 min - Directions - Marlin wants to leave Dori. 50 min - All lost failed for plan to escape. 55 min - Marlin learns from turtle allowing squirt to swim on his own. 60 min - Nemo learns father is coming for him - False victory 67 min - Victory is false. 70 min - Whale, trust Dori from his mistakes. 75 min - Out of Whale, Tank is Clean- lesson to swim down/work as team. 80 min - Nemo gets out. Lost Hope. Marlin and Dori separate. 85 min - Dori remembers, a skill found with Marlin. Finds Nemo. 90 min - Nemo and Dad trust. Apply the skills they learned. opposite, happy ending.
"Perhaps figure out how Sonny can be more like that structure in terms of when certain plot points and thematic revelations play." -The whole outline is all in my head. So I'm going to follow your advice and do that now or tonight. Making sure all those things are there so I can flush them out. I may look into the version with Loki as the antagonist. The opening scene is what really stuck to me- possibly I can have it as someway as the technology being the bad guy. Giving Loki some mind control thing having too many satellites. (that was an option that came for me, I'll develope that further, what do you think?) - (I'd also have to introduce him earlier on. Which I read is a biggy, cause you don't want your main face off to just POP up in the end, and I did that thinking it would work, since Loki is just another test)
Anyways, Glen. I'm so grateful for your honesty. And Songwithoutwords has pointed so many things, some that I've answered but need to make clear and others that I need to include without making too much exposition. So this next draft that I hope I do goes into that direction.
Also, I read Save The Cat some time ago and in my sketchbook I have that it noted as the Golden Fleece tale (Jason and the Argonauts), where it isn't important what they're after but what happens along the way- to which the thing that the find is only themselves. Rites of passage.
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Post by outofcontext on Mar 10, 2010 8:09:00 GMT -5
Everybody's doing such a great job with feedback, tous, that I find I have nothing to add. I can only second the need to be more detailed, concrete and explicit in the bulk of the work, so that when you become more abstract the reader is more willing and able to go with you. I've never read the 2001 screenplay, but I'm guessing the part you quoted is the exception rather than the rule. I love that picture from start to finish, but I wouldn't like to see the ending extended over 90 minutes. Anyway, you are fortunate to get such complete engagement from those who have commented above. I would just add, keep the enthusiasm, take the advice that fits your idiom and bring it to the people. Look forward to future incarnations of Sonny.
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Post by echomusic on Mar 11, 2010 14:47:01 GMT -5
Working my way through this in what little spare time I have these days. What a fun read this is! Can't wait to see how it all pans out.
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 25, 2010 15:04:20 GMT -5
Okay, I made a lot of corrections/many alterations! I tightened up my sentencing as well. Further at the end though, it could use more tightening but that's not whats important. I just want to see if you guys like this draft better. OutofContext, Andrew, everything you have said I've pushed more to the surface so I hope you notice. And Glen, I've incorporated Loki as the antagonist in this one who is a completely different character, so thank you! I just have to note that when working on this one it's incredible how much your characters change with you. Anyways you know the shabam.
Sonny The Spec (((((POSTING IT ON PAGE 3!!!))))
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tonym
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Post by tonym on Mar 26, 2010 9:30:23 GMT -5
I read until page 17 and I'm confused.
A metallic stick bug flies through the solar system listening to snippets from strange radio stations. Then something called Sonny is in the Sun, trying to get out of an egg. Then Sonny gets out and his parents put him back in because he killed his brother and acts weird. And then two planets have a conversation.
Why does Sonny think he knows everything about the universe even though he just hatched five seconds ago? Sonny's parents tell him that his brother is dead, and he replies ,"He has a chance to live now. You'll see."
I guess the strangeness of the story baffles me.
Nicely written, though.
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 27, 2010 20:18:13 GMT -5
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tonym
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Post by tonym on Mar 27, 2010 22:02:14 GMT -5
Okay, I read it. Are you saying I should not merely criticize, but offer suggestions for improvement?
Because, unfortunately, I don't have any specific ideas for improvement. The point of my previous post was to convey the idea that some people may find the first few pages difficult to grasp, that's all.
Didn't mean to offend.
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tous
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Post by tous on Mar 27, 2010 22:29:45 GMT -5
Ah yes, but why? Why is it so difficult to grasp? Do you lack the imagination? I don't think that's true. Would 2 planets talking be any different than 2 people? Why maybe their attributes and there appearance for sure, but that's what gives the space for relation upon invention and exploration of the story. So I ask- if you've seen any other animated film, toy's talking, a-a-a- a fish knowing what a balloon is in finding nemo, cars being invented without humans? -Suspend your disbelief for just a moment and let it take you. But thank you, i know that this script isn't for some.
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Post by songswithoutwords on Mar 28, 2010 2:20:05 GMT -5
Hi tous,
Just downloading this now and will read it this week.
Andrew
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tonym
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Post by tonym on Mar 28, 2010 19:00:28 GMT -5
Ah yes, but why? Why is it so difficult to grasp? Do you lack the imagination? I don't think that's true. Would 2 planets talking be any different than 2 people? Why maybe their attributes and there appearance for sure, but that's what gives the space for relation upon invention and exploration of the story. So I ask- if you've seen any other animated film, toy's talking, a-a-a- a fish knowing what a balloon is in finding nemo, cars being invented without humans? -Suspend your disbelief for just a moment and let it take you. But thank you, i know that this script isn't for some. I think saying a script is confusing is a valid criticism. You mentioned Toy Story, Cars and Finding Nemo. The strangeness in Toy Story was that the toys could talk and move, and we've all grown up pretending toys could talk and move, so that strangeness wasn't hardly strange at all. And in Cars and Finding Nemo, the protagonists were familiar-looking creatures with simple goals, and were therefore easy to relate to. In your script, however, Sonny kills his brother and then his mother puts him back into an egg. How am I supposed to relate to that? Am I suposed to imagine what it must be like to kill my sister and then get shoved back inside my mother's womb? Never in the history of the universe has anything ever went back inside an egg. Every page of your script added more and more strangeness until I got confused.
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