Other Screenwriting Communities - ARE STUPID

[tous]

Wow, opening up this new thread, gives me nostalgia of home.

I was curious as to whether anyone else is part of another screenwriting based website? Where you turn in your work and help with reviews. Gain points. Earn a living.

I just joined Triggerstreet and Talentville, about 2 months ago? Ya 2 months ago.
For those that don't know:

TRIGGERSTREET:
Amazing. Ranking system, lots of fresh work to review, many of them being a bit amateur comparatively with GITS, but still refreshing. And there's a fair coin operation going on where you gain public status ranking earned by reviewing one's work. You need 4 reviews to submit yours. It's very clean there. But a lot of reviews as I've seen, give a paragraph synopsis which is quite weird. I think the person would know their own story.

TALENTVILLE:
Pretty much same thing, minus the public ranking. I find it a bit of a ghost town. A lot of fresh material there, and the guidelines are stretchy so there aren't as many restrictions as Triggerstreet. Each review, you gain money which you spend on reviews which is a bit.. mehh, since your pretty much paying someone to review it, and if they dont give the review you want, you're stuck. But the upside is you can fast track- which is a really neat way to push yourself to review someone else's work- faster and earning slightly more money. This system is a bit of a push, I don't really like it since it seems to focus on that whole money aspect rather than doing morally code like we do here. In this case, Triggerstreet seems more open and I think it's more widely connected.

Both atmospheres are great, but GITS is still the placcee to be-
But, Morning Coffe or Nighttime Beer. I'd say give me the midway and mix up both with cyanide. I say this because I recently published my screenplay on both sites.
Pending 4 reviews on Talentville, while my submission on Triggerstreet is currently in the HALL OF JUSTICE, awaiting a trial by jury- of enlisted honorary members at TS.

Pretty much, I received an email (and I knew this would happen) that my screenplay has been voted against regulations.

Screenplays should be no less than 90 pages and no more 150 pages as these lengths are more aligned with industry standards.

Stating that it is under 90 pages and that I am allowed a statement of defense. -- all in a 200 word limit. Yeeah.

"But Tous, why don't you post it here"

Good question kind apparition.
I wanted to have it super clean before bringing you all under with me.

Soo it's somewhat funny, for anyone that's interested I'll share my claim:

"Informant's Complaint - Only 84 pages. Too short"

Tous
“The page counts are set in place because they are aligned with industry standards”
Todd Alcott, “A screenplay for an animated feature... should not be longer than 90 pages, and anything over 80 is pushing it. My draft of Antz was 83. I can't tell you why this is a rule, but it is. There are exceptions” Exceptions, like not industry standard? Such as UP, concluding at 100 pages. But you can't expect me to write something like UP.
Finding Nemo, Monster's Inc, Kung Fu Panda, TOY STORY, THE LION KING, barely over 80.
toddalcott.livejournal.com/179348.html
I have already denied myself the privilege of sharing more pages, all in respect to the reader, by shortening it for industry standards. Please don't allow this mere “complaint” to jeopardize my lively hood in such an wondrous community of writers; who each in their own foils, ache to get the words to stop forming, even in their dreams. For alas, I too am a writer, who beseeches help upon my screenplay. I bid you take a gander at my reviews. They are more than whom only give a single paragraph.
Anyways, I think 6 pages is inconsequential. Thank you for hearing."

=======

But there's more.
So on my page of Sonny The Spec, a senior member posts a comment:

GimmeABreak
"Just read your excuse in the Hall of Justice. I have the SPs for all of the Pixar and Dreamworks animations released in the last 10 years and not one of them is under 110 pages. Finding Nemo is 140."

My response:

Tous
An excuse is what little kids use to get away with something they did wrong. This is not an excuse. It is a defense.

Furthermore, Gimmeabreak? You should have CONTACTED me via EMAIL, not as a comment.

I apologize for this, but- I do not have the patience for nonsensical statements that don't help the condition I'm in, as I can only infer that your comment is made to justify the allegations laid against me.

I BELIEVE that my screenplay is in INDUSTRY STANDARDS, as an animation. Page a minute, right? That's the universal so-called rule of thumb in screenwriting.
Kung Fu Panda - 83 pages
Antz - 83 pages
Tale of Desperaux - 83
Open Season - 86
Surf's Up - 85
Robots - 89
Valiant - 76!
TOY STORY - 80 minutes. That should set the record. Who doesn't base things off Toy Story?

Yes you are right. Pixar and Dreamworks. They are the current leads in the industry, but you cannot go under the assumption that they are my only means of approval on page count. For my story is not merely 84 pages. It is beyond. But I have bereft myself the privilege of over 90 pages, in which I am now a shy 6 pages according to regulations. But my intentions were not.. to cheat, or excuse myself of story- it was in respect to the reader and to what I have just proven as industry standard.

As for Finding Nemo at a 140 pages. This cannot be evident as industry standard if that is what you are using to hold against my defense.
The Industry Standard for screenplays are from 90-120, but the regulations for this site are from 90-150, due to uploading errors, but I've read screenplays well over 120 pages. TWO of my reviews are from scripts over 120 pages. But you don't see me complaining, nor anyone else for that matter- and THAT, is outside industry standards.

Anyways, I am not as fortunate as you are to have those scripts. And in there lies my predicament."
=======

So that's what I'm left with and- I mean, like, this is quite honestly fucking retarded. Why did he say that? My friend said that I was coming off too STRONG and emotional in this extended response- As I've taken this out:

"I see that in order for this "complaint", which is a very odd, nonsensical, and even seemingly fatuous choice of wording, to have found me, it had to have been passed by the Arraignment Process. I think "Error Found" would be a more scrutable form of wording to the cause to which it demeans, but a few things about that:
How many of them write for animation?
I only ask because now this is making me feel extremely partial to the whole system, and that's the BIG main concern of this whole thing anyways isn't it?
"The Hall of Justice is a system much like a judicial system that allows the site's community to regulate itself in an effort to ensure that the site remains fair and impartial..."
A judicial system... with outside comments argued by the jury itself?
Haha, I should be able to request the dismissal of a juror for cause. There should be a whole voir dire to this, having only animation judge animation. After-all, you wouldn't want someone telling you how to do something or pointing out what they find WRONG in your COMEDY screenplay is all they KNOW is DRAMA... would you."
=========

And also, this dude's bio says:
"Just another sh'lub trying to get by..."
Not to mention his name, GIMMEABREAK, which I found to be very ironic and hypocritical- Haha.

So I came here because I know you all support me. I just feel like they are going to vote DENY on me anyways-- just for the sake that my defense in the comment may be considered outspoken. I don't know. Kinda scared. I think I can resubmit as long as it's under a different title and has 90 pages in it. I just didn't know why I was so undeserving when I write reviews pages deep, giving all my thoughts and efforts- as others only submit a single paragraph.

Also noting that I have reviewed 9. And you only need 4 to submit, so maybe I should have reflected that and offered to do more work for this to be allowed, but then again. I'm right. I have to be. Those are the FACTs. When I was here- I was told to keep it under 90.

Anywho-- I -- just.. needed to get this off my chest cause it was bugging me and you've all push my screenplay in some direction or another so I thought you should know the progress.

[oz]

Hi Tous

Interesting post. : ) I joined Triggerstreet YEARS ago---their second year online, I believe. What it evolved into didn't thrill me. It seemed like they had three member types: 1--Those who honestly just wanted feedback on their scripts to improve. 2--Those who honestly believed they had all the answers and everyone else was an idiot. These were also the people whom, I believe, honestly thought if they posted their brilliant work, an agent would call them at home and offer them a million dollars--in other words, they had no clue or no desire to learn how to get their work out there. And 3--Those who argued with anyone who didn't rank their script as brilliant. It became too much work for me and I haven't been back in years.

As to your frustrations and the exchanges you had with the Hall of Justice or whomever, I just think you have to look at the entire experience differently. I've never read your script--partially because I was here for a while then had to take several months off because of my health but also because I got the impression from the posts that you were a frustrated poster and I didn't want to engage.

If you're willing to post your work, you've got to be open to the critique. A critique doesn't have to solve the problems it addresses. You don't have to agree with the critique---I usually take stock if three people say the same thing, otherwise I recognize that not everyone likes every genre and not every piece posted is going to be everyone's cup of tea.

That said, I'm just here to learn and help and do better. If you're going to basically tell me I'm stupid because I didn't understand what you wrote (not you, but people in general), I have no desire to give up the time and energy to try to help. I checked out the postings from people on your script and there are times when HOW you challenge someone's observations on THEIR experience reading your work borders on attacking.

Develop thicker skin. Know that if two or three people say the same thing, it's probably something that needs fixing. Thank people for their time and effort. Know that you can always improve and that's what sites like this are for. I know you know these things but they're worth repeating because they'll help keep you sane.

I think you're a hoot ; ) I worry, though, that you're too easily offended when someone disagrees and in this business that will destroy you.

I'll pull up your latest script version and be happy to help in any way I can. But you need to relax. : )

PS---I'm going to make an admission here that will probably freak some people out but....I've never read McKee! : ) Thanks for the compliment, though!

[tous]

Hey Oz,

Thanks so much for the feedback on Trigger. Yeah people seem like they own the place. And I know - that was a very odd situation to find myself in, I was really sticking up for other people on those comments which I rarely do, as that key person had some other conflicts I had come upon, but all in all- I'm just curious. Or I'm looking for an intelligent conversation as all of my friends are all sculptures and painters so I get really anxious when I'm talking with another writer. I really want to engage them. Hahha maybe that's better through actual speech and conversation rather than typing, especially if you don't know the person.

Anyways thanks! Yes, I will look forward to your response and I won't get carried away this time.

[lazzard]

Spent about 6 months on triggerstreet - and to be honest I just milked it for a few readthroughs.
Mainly inane comments, some downright WRONG but ONE great crit that led to some fairly major changes.
The trouble is, some of those guys live on that site - they've lost touch with reality.
(There's a hilarious guy who thinks he's some sort of guru - sadly based in the UK!)
And, I'm afraid, there's some mean f****ers on there too.

One might criticize GITS board for being a bit quiet - but at least that way you know that it's members actually have a life outside the board.
Shit, some of them might even be writing movies!

I had similar problems with Authonomy the Harper Collins slushpile site.
Places like that become like an alternate uniiverse with a blackhole at it's centre, eating up all that time you should have spent getting on with your work!

Mainly what you have to remember is that one piece of feedback from someone actually in the business is worth a hundred wannabe critics picking over your stuff.
And that's not a snipe at this place, because -
a) the quality of crit is IMHO a lot more honest/from the heart and certainly a lot lighter in 'How To' book quotes here and
b) We're all smart enough to know that this is just a staging post before we throw our stuff to the wolves in the real world.

Good luck

[Deleted]

I joined Triggerstreet for one reason only. I wanted to read bad scripts. Honestly.

After having read many scripts that were actually made into movies, I wanted to compare and see what a bad script was. The only script I read at Triggerstreet was horrible. There was no structure, it had weak characters, and at the end there were 20 pages of a "letter" that basically was a review of the first 60 pages. The story was weak and very boring.

Having joined GITS prior to signing up at Triggerstreet, I did what we were normally do here, I pointed out what needed to be worked on. I tried to help by pointing out glaring format flaws and showed the writer that he had little story to work with. I explained what scenes worked, which didn't and why...and then I clicked submit.

I was able to read the other reviews that were written about this script. The other reviews were well written...and WAY off the mark. They were basically blowing smoke up the writers ass, telling him how WONDERFUL his script was. My jaw hit the desk!

It was at that point that I decided I wouldn't be returning to Triggerstreet as I knew I would not be able to get honest and intelligent reviews of my work.

Here on GITS, I recently posted the first 8 pages of a project I am very passionate about. The comments were spot on. The critiques were honest, but most importantly it was constructive criticism. Some awesome ideas were shared and I plan to use many of them in my future rewrites.

All of the writers here push one another in a GOOD way, IF you are the kind of person that is willing to accept the constructive criticism.

Like Oz, there are some ideas suggested that I cannot use as they really do not apply to the overall theme, but there are other ideas that were so wonderful that they will help me elevate my works so that I can write a GREAT script.

I feel lucky to have found GoIntoTheStory.com and this board. As a new writer, I really felt lost before landing here. I only hope that I can contribute to others as much as they have contributed to me.

[oz]

Hey Tous, I couldn't get your latest version of Sonny to load. I'd prefer to read the latest version rather than the original post since you indicated you made some changes.

Let me know when you get that reposted and I'll give it a look : )

[tous]

I found that I feel the same way about GITS. It's like a quiet home with the front door always having someone open it and walking through, just as someone leaves. And I think I joined -- triggerstreet-- for the same reason as you did brain. I really wanted to see how NOT TO do something in hopes it would lurk in the back of my mind and they do have so many writers each with their own unique and personalized voice, I love it. And I'm sorry I didnt have the chance to read the 8 pages , really I am >< I have a lot of personal stuff going on, but I won't miss the next one for the world. Maybe I can be the fresh pair of eyes on the next few pages

To more thoughts!

Oh OZ!
I just got 2 awesome reviews on triggerstreet that pretty much tore it apart haha
but I can't be more happy because their intentions were to get it to me before the council took it down. Of course- thoughts about my work are always invaluable to me. I think hearing opinions and true concerns are really what gets me thinking -- I just had such a fever to answer all their questions, which would come off as "disagreeing?" and what you have said is not to do that, so I didn't
And I doubt there would be any room for it. haha (small comment spaces) - (and we have BIG! FORUMS)

Although, I couldn't help but make a slight connection, as to what has been said here, in accordance to the people there. (hmmm veeery interesting) - (Yes.. indeed). But Fortunately, I'm not quick to judge -so you just gotta take it as it comes.
But OZ, I really don't want to crush your time, because these reviews-- both in common-- have stated my script to be too... confusing.. and I fear that it might be.
I think the only reason why others that have read it, understood it, was because i explained the story to them in person or through email, before having them read it. Kinda like watching the director's documentary over the footage where he explains-- and then you say "oh, now i get it"-- so for you, i'll post it-- but promise if you can't get passed the first 10 pages because it's too crazy- you'll stop, because I couldn't ask for more.

[Jeff Messerman]

Wow.

I'm glad ya'll, overall, like this little quiet nook of the scribosphere. It's become exactly what I'd hoped... a safe place to share work and get constructive critiques. Nothing more, nothing less. Its core ideals are simplistic to a fault. (something sites like Triggerstreet and Scripped seem to have forgotten...)

I promise to do my best to keep it that way.

Even if I have to buy a bazooka.

Jeff

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2010 23:21:21 GMT -5 Jeff Messerman said:

Even if I have to buy a bazooka.

Jeff

That is a good idea...but I don't know how bubble gum will help.

Bwahahaha. I crack myself up...no one else laughs but I am entertained!

[Jeff Messerman]

I'll grant you half a chortle, if only because I have a soft spot in my heart (and in my molars) for Bazooka Bubble Gum. I played a lot of right field in my little league days (because I mostly sucked but let's not focus on that now) and I'd always chaw down an entire pack of classic Bazooka as I whiled away the hours, counting the skeeters and blades of grass, awaiting that holy well-hit ball to right which I invariably bobbled or just outright missed.

Thanks for the memories!

[tous]

That is a good idea...but I don't know how bubble gum will help.
-Bwaahahaha.. nice!

Did you read the comics?? I mean that's what it was ALL about right, screw the bubble gum (noo, we don't screw it we chew it)..

screw the bubble gum, better yet, AnyONe remember fruitstripes??! They were zebras! Those were like... Uggh, godly in heaven hello be thy name! (hello be thy name?? Uh, I think you misp-) they were soo good. Remember? Remember how good they were- Like dipping babies in chocolate...
--No, no, that's horrible. a horrible comparison.

It was more like, your grandma buying you a present for having an C in class, and straight after- you show that present to your brother who hits you because your beautiful or something (motive still in question) and then you go out for icecream straight after the doctor's. I MEan! Does this roller coaster chain of happiness never end?? OH and after that you win the touchdown pass in baseball (..I think you got the wrong spor) YA! You like that turn of events, I just brought you right back- just like good ol' haunting child-hood memories of baseball should be.